Cai - Which Ones?

[bconn587]

Thanks for the info everybody, much appreciated
Ill gonna pull the trigger on this when I get back from the
Mustangs Across America tour in april.

If your looking to save some money I'll probably have the one I bought from JDM for sale by then. After talking to the guys at HPP in Dallas, I will be going with a power pipe of some type in the next few weeks. They were saying that they have seen gains of about 30 hp from a custom intake they fabbed and installed on a Roush at their shop.

[DiMora]

DiMora,
Thanks for the info, did you need too reflash immediatly after the install
or can i drive it too my mechanic(Sutton HP)about 50 miles??

I bought an SCT X3 and re-flashed immediately...then drove straight to my tuner staying OUT of boost.

He dynoed it and I was on my way.

Most guys will say that if you stay out of the boost, you can drive it safely. If you are ouf of the boost, it is running in bypass mode anyway, so your tune should be fine just to cruise to the shop.

[RED ROUSH WA]

I got my Roush Cold Ait Intake very, very, slightly used from a member here and love it. Well worth the lower price and awsome condition(new). Might ask if someone is getting blown soon and selling there's soon. Myself, I'll sell mine when the time is right.

Ps. It's also signed now by Jack Roush.

[Johnny@BlowByRacing]

If you are running the Roushcharger, we like the Steeda CAI for them. The are a tight fit, but well worth the few extra minutes of finagling it on.

[JimGnitecki]

Here's a graph from my library on my own project Mustang GT that shows the effect of the genuine Roush cold air kit:



Note that the kit added 18 rwhp.

Jim G

[ChrisnLBC]

Check out this one from Anderson Ford 05-08 MUSTANG ROUSHCARGER POWER PIPE® KIT

Anderson Ford Motorsport Home Page

This Power Pipe® PKAF-0126C is specifically engineered and calibrated (using the NEW Abaco DBX 97mm digital mass air meter) for 05-08 Mustangs equipped with the Roushcharger kit .
The PKAF-0126C is equipped with the largest air box in the business supplying 819 cubic inches of cooler air to the DBX 97mm digital mass air meter and hooking that up to a 4.5'' mandrel bent ceramic coated Power Pipe that looks Fierce and flows 1300+cfms

With this awesome setup, we have seen an increase of up to 17 rear wheel horse power with no need to FLASH the computer on the Roushcharger equipped Mustangs. Utilizing the PKAF-0126C with bigger throttle body and or smaller supercharger pulley will results in even bigger gains in Horse Power and boost.

Im also curious about this setup as well. The only thing that has been stopping me from getting a CAI is the warranty voiding. Since this uses the stock tune, does that mean the warranty is still in tact. Or I should say, Roush will not know that you even had it on right?

Chris

[racione]

Just recieved this newsletter from Roush about the CAI, Was thinking about putting one on until i read this now not sure i want to take a chance. Sounds like more work putting on a GT500 pump than having to have it retuned again after the GT500 pump.


Q: Why is it that ROUSH® Performance sells items to enhance the look and performance of your ROUSHchargedT mustang, but if installed voids the warranty of the engine? For example, the '05-'09 cold air kit.
- Luther

Q: I have a 2005 Mustang GT with a ROUSHcharger® (part no. 403309) and would like to buy and install the ROUSHcharger® (supercharger) Cold Air Intake, but concerned about the installation voiding the manufacturer warranty. Why would installing a ROUSH® Performance part void the ROUSH® powertrain warranty? I might understand if someone installed an aftermarket cold air induction kit in front of the ROUSHcharger®, but what gives?
- Ed

A: These two questions were so similar we decided to answer them together. Part of the issue is that the installation of the Cold Air Kit could run the engine lean unless you added a dual GT500 fuel pump. This, however, would make the cost very prohibitive. That is why we cannot maintain the warranty on that item.

[JimGnitecki]

Just recieved this newsletter from Roush about the CAI, Was thinking about putting one on until i read this now not sure i want to take a chance. Sounds like more work putting on a GT500 pump than having to have it retuned again after the GT500 pump.


Q: Why is it that ROUSH® Performance sells items to enhance the look and performance of your ROUSHchargedT mustang, but if installed voids the warranty of the engine? For example, the '05-'09 cold air kit.
- Luther

Q: I have a 2005 Mustang GT with a ROUSHcharger® (part no. 403309) and would like to buy and install the ROUSHcharger® (supercharger) Cold Air Intake, but concerned about the installation voiding the manufacturer warranty. Why would installing a ROUSH® Performance part void the ROUSH® powertrain warranty? I might understand if someone installed an aftermarket cold air induction kit in front of the ROUSHcharger®, but what gives?
- Ed

A: These two questions were so similar we decided to answer them together. Part of the issue is that the installation of the Cold Air Kit could run the engine lean unless you added a dual GT500 fuel pump. This, however, would make the cost very prohibitive. That is why we cannot maintain the warranty on that item.

There is another way to look at the Roush statement made above in reply to the questions:

The CAI must really work, since it can lean out the engine enough to cause a problem.

This WOULD be a problem, IF Roush did not tune the engine so conservatively in the first place. However, Roush's conervative tune could conceivably be stressed by things like very high ambient outdoor temperature coupled with say an uphill climb under boost conditions. Just saying it COULD happen.

When I did my experiments a while back on my 2009 Mustang GT project car for the e-book, the CAI seemed to add 18 rwhp as actually measured on the local dyno that isued for the entire series of tests. The dyno operator there told me as well that CAI kits in general have a tremendously beneficial impact on supercharged Mustangs. He told me that on the 2003/2004 Cobras, whose intake system was particularly restrictive, it was not unsuual to see 30 morre rwhp - AFTER retuning for the increased air flow.

Note that the o3/04 Cobras had a MUCH higher capacity fuel pump, supporting Roush's concern. Note also that the Cobra fuel pump setup does NOT retrofit to our 05-09 Mustangs due to an entirely different mounting system in the fuel tank.

Yes, the GT500 fuel pump kit, which by the way includes dual pumps, all the circuitry to properly control them, and a new wiring harness, IS costly. Like about $700 plus installation. But, if you want to play, there are costs . . .

Jim G

[RMB427R]

There is another way to look at the Roush statement made above in reply to the questions:

This WOULD be a problem, IF Roush did not tune the engine so conservatively in the first place. However, Roush's conervative tune could conceivably be stressed by things like very high ambient outdoor temperature coupled with say an uphill climb under boost conditions. Just saying it COULD happen.
Jim G

Interesting thought...a bit scary, but interesting. Imagine taking a nice cruise on a hot summer day and screwing up the motor by jumping on it during a long interstate climb..

Ouch!!

[RoushItalian'98]

I just bought the JLT for mine. I think that is another good choice check it out on americanmuscle.com

[cbisket]

Here's a graph from my library on my own project Mustang GT that shows the effect of the genuine Roush cold air kit:



Note that the kit added 18 rwhp.

Jim G

Jim G,
I could not view your graph, it wasnt there in the post, no big deal,I believe your #s,
Anyway about your reply too the other post on roush's warranty issues with the CAI'S, my warranty is up @ the end of april anyway thats when I plan on doin the CAI and the 2.57 pulley for around 8lbs of boost.
Ive even heard roush say that 8lbs is safe for the stock bottom end .
As long as I get a good tune (Sutton HP) there is no need for the fuel pump upgrade, as there are many out there running this set-up with the stock fuel pump. You're thoughts??
By the way thanks for all you insight and info you post up on here
much appreciated.

[pikapp]

cbisket: Odds are if you go with a CAI, you'll be needing to get it tuned. Talk to your tuner to find if you will be needing to upgrade the fuel pumps or not. I just added the Roush CAI & Metco 2.57" pulley. I asked my tuner if I was going to need to upgrade the fuel pumps as well as the spark plugs and he said, won't know till be get into the tuning process. When all was said and done, no upgrades were needed period. Car put out just under 420rwhp. It's been said the stangs can handle up around 425rwhp before needing the fuel pumps upgraded. But I'm sure some will tell you that they are there or higher and haven't replaced pumps yet, so..... I'm no mechanic or tuner, just passing on what I've heard, read and what my tuner has told me.

good luck,

[JimGnitecki]

Cbisket: I ran the numbers in my simulation software recently on fuel flow requirements with the smaller pulleys, but lost the output file, and would have to recreate it now to answer your question.

With my current unemployment, and the issues it is creating, I can't take the time to do that right now - it would consume the better part of an afternoon, and I need to devote that time to more urgent items right now. I'll try to get that done sometime in the future.

In the meantime, bear in mind that the fuel system has to work under circumstances where one or MULTIPLE simultaneously of the following occur:

- Hot weather (you'd like to be tuned a bit rich so that when it gets hot, you have more resistance to detonation)

- Low system voltage in the car due to cold weather starts, battery condition, electrical leak, powerful stereo, etc ( low voltage lowers pump output DRAMATICALLY - much more than the percent drop in voltage would imply)

- High engine loads at moderate or low rpm, like in climbing steep hills (you'd like a richer mixture so that you have more resistance to detonation)

- Bad fuel or other debris results in partial plugging of the fuel filter (pump needs to puish harder to overcome the extra resistance)

So, if a tuner tunes for "clean / optimized" conditions, with insufficient allowance for things like the above, you could run into problems.

Jim G

[LeeU]

I talked to folks over at Anderson Ford Motorsports about the Power Pipe for the Roushcharged motors, he said NO tune is needed to run the Power Pipe and that is due to the digital throttle body, he also said the throttle body flows a ton of air and cost $400.00 so that is why the Power Pipe cost $599.00, also asked him about a group buy but no go. So the 17 hp is with NO tune FYI.
LeeU

[DiMora]

My tuner, Tim at Modular Power House in Cartersville, GA, deals with Vortech, and Kenne Bell.

He said that with the stock fuel pump and running close to 400RWHP, even when the stock fuel pump is good on initial dyno runs, it eventually goes lean as it ages.

He said he would not run a roushcharger with 2.57 on his own car without a Kenne Bell boost-a-pump or a GT500 dual pump setup.

He and I talked about the pros and cons of each...if I go with the boost-a-pump it is $250 and I install it myself, and no additional tuning is required. The boost-a-pump is a nice solution because it does not run all the time, only when it is needed - so it does not really adversely affect your pump life.

If you go with the GT500 pump, it is more expensive and you would also have to pay to re-tune as it runs at different voltages.

If you haven't done the pulley and the 2.57 yet, it might be worth your time to do the GT500 so you are set for future upgrades - if you will be going down that road.

For me, I don't anticipate going for more since I don't have forged internals. I thought about buying a TVS with GT500 pump and de-tuning it for 450RWHP, but that seems like such a waste when I am at 387 right now. It is a lot of money for a small upgrade. I know the torque is better, etc. but if I go with a TVS I want to do it right and just forge it all and lay down some silly horsepower - upwards of 550.

I might eventually just go with the Roush P51 short-block / TVS blower setup.

Anyway, I'll be installing a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump this week, and I'll post up some pics in my car's upgrade thread that I already have going.

[ChrisnLBC]

I talked to folks over at Anderson Ford Motorsports about the Power Pipe for the Roushcharged motors, he said NO tune is needed to run the Power Pipe and that is due to the digital throttle body, he also said the throttle body flows a ton of air and cost $400.00 so that is why the Power Pipe cost $599.00, also asked him about a group buy but no go. So the 17 hp is with NO tune FYI.
LeeU

Thanks for that info Lee. This Pipe has really peaked my interest in a piece that we can run and put back to stock if needed. Im looking for a cold air intake that sounds good looks good under the hood. Anyone have experience with this one? How do you like it?

[JimGnitecki]

DiMora: I would be REALLY interested in a good description from you, preferably with photos if possible , of that Boost-A-Pump installation.

I suspect that a lot of people will go that route because of the lower cost and simpler install, unless they go for a complete forged internals solution.

Jim G
JimGnitecki@msn.com

[pikapp]

DiMora: I would be REALLY interested in a good description from you, preferably with photos if possible , of that Boost-A-Pump installation.

I suspect that a lot of people will go that route because of the lower cost and simpler install, unless they go for a complete forged internals solution.

Jim G
JimGnitecki@msn.com

Well...the comment about the stock fuel pumps aging and going lean got my attention since I'm now running well over 400rwhp. Waiting to hear back from my tuner on this and may be doing the Boost-A-Pump at a minimum as well.

[DiMora]

DiMora: I would be REALLY interested in a good description from you, preferably with photos if possible , of that Boost-A-Pump installation.

I suspect that a lot of people will go that route because of the lower cost and simpler install, unless they go for a complete forged internals solution.

Jim G
JimGnitecki@msn.com

Well...the comment about the stock fuel pumps aging and going lean got my attention since I'm now running well over 400rwhp. Waiting to hear back from my tuner on this and may be doing the Boost-A-Pump at a minimum as well.

I posted my photos in the following thread...along with a link form another fellow that did an awesome write-up. My intention was to do a full "how-to" but he did it already, so I didn't waste the effort. The other fellow's write-up really is outstanding.

Here is the thread...on page 4 on my PC.

http://www.fnsweet.com/forums/05-09-...1-mustang.html

One other thing...Kenne Bell has some great articles with data on how the boost-a-pump works. It really is slick.

Jim, these articles will be right down your alley if my hunch is correct based on your previous posts.

Boost-A-Pump Theory Explained: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...heory_kens.pdf

"Fuel Pump Tech": http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...elpumptech.pdf

"Fuel Flow Forensics": http://www.kennebell.net/media/artic...WFORENSICS.pdf

All the above links came from KenneBell.net: Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump

[JimGnitecki]

"along with a link form another fellow that did an awesome write-up. My intention was to do a full "how-to" but he did it already, so I didn't waste the effort. The other fellow's write-up really is outstanding.
"

THAT's an understatement! I have saved those instructions!!

Jim G