Axle girdles, axle braces, welding the axle tubes ?

[Pentalab]

Are any of the above actually required ? At what point are they used, with sticky tires ?
I think badpiggy said he was going to weld the axle tubes. The word is, the entire axle has to be removed from the car, axles removed from each end, LSD removed, and then an alignment rod stuffed through it, then the entire mess is put into a jig. You can't weld em while in place on a lift, or jackstands.

They have to be dead aligned b4 welding..and the 360 deg weld has to be done in one continuous sequence, then you let it cool. The story I'm getting is the cool down sequence is what causes the outer axle tubes to warp/shift..hence the use of the jig, so it doesn't. Here we are talking about welding the axle tubes to the differential.

Another option is the various axle braces sold by CHE+ also UPR etc.

Then you also have the various Aluminum axle girdles...aka differential covers.

I take it that one or more of the above 3 methods could be employed. If you have a watts link, I doubt the axle girdle would fit since the watts link arms might be in the way. The whiteline watts link already comes with a new AL differential cover which might be enough support.

Ok, the above support schemes I think are for folks who drag race..and use sticky tires and drop the clutch at 4-5k rpm. Baffles me why ford didn't just weld the axle tubes to the housing in the 1st place. Some have said that in some cases that is not enough support and that axle braces also have to be used. IE: cracked welds, etc.

What kind of hp are we talking about here to bend the axle tubes outa shape ? Or is this just a pre-heated sticky tire/drag strip scenario ?

I'm thinking in terms of where either the LSD and /or rear gears are replaced, or watts link is installed. IE: while the rear end is all apart anyway, then perhaps do the axle tube welding on the jig/axle tube brace etc....and do it all at once....in the correct sequence.

Jimbo

[cmg427]

I think were good until we go with slicks down the strip with over 700hp

[AutoXRacer]

Hey now...don't be throwing that 700HP number around like that... lol

I think the only justifiable mod to the axle is the girdle... I got a FRPP version that allows you to drain the rear end without having to remove the cover. So thats an added benefit.
Also it has the feature of pre-loading the bearing caps; this is important because a lot of stress is put onto those bearing caps. Many rear-ends have blown from highway expansion plates, painted road surfaces, and just changes in surface grip. When you are merging on the highway and you run over a slippery plate or painted road surface...the rear-end unloads (tires spinning) then it drops onto the cement/concrete and boom instant traction.

The braces and welding stuff I will leave to the guys running 800-1500HP with full slicks... The key word being slicks...any time you increase traction to the point of slicks, your parts will break!!
If the 2013 GT500 with 650HP can survive with a stock 8.8 rear-end, I'm sure we can... lol

[Red 96]

In our x 275 car we run an 8.8 with welded tubes and various other bracing .we are making in the area of 1400-1600 hp and 60ft 1.18 consistently . If that tells you anything

[BadPiggy]

This is not entirely true. You are more likely to warp the assembly by welding a continuos 360* pass than doing a stitch weld. The cool down method is also important. Lastly, I'm not welding them...I'm having a friend that owns a hot rod fab shop that's done this many times, weld the tubes. Although I'm confident in my welding ability, I'm accustomed to welding thick steel and laying the heat to it. My friend is a master with mods like this. Also, I prefer the TIG method over the MIG or stick. I don't have a TIG, my friend does.

I watched the 2 year process of my friend rebuild an Edsel Ford owned Speedster, a one-off car that he basically reconstructed from pictures. I've watched him build '32 frames, build custom headers...you name it. One of his old employers, Bobby Alloway of http://www.allowaysrodshop.com/ even subs work to my friend.

If any of you remember the FIRST Ford cammer funny car, piloted by Mark Chrisman...my friends Dad now owns this car. My friend and his twin brother were turning wrenches when they were still in diapers. I have the utmost respect for my friends ability in doing this. My friend and his brothers shop can be seen here...http://www.barillarospeed.net/. EVERYONE in this country that has much to do with the 428 CJ motors deal with my friends Dad, he is the 428 master. What am I getting at? These guys know their shit when it comes to hot rods...period.

As I've discussed with Gerald through PM's, I'm wanting to build a monster. Gerald did most of his at once, I'm sure because of the blown motor. I know what direction I'm going and am in no great hurry to get there, therefore, I can take baby steps. The direction I'm going with my Stang, hopefully I'll still twist the axles out, even after welding. Since I'm messing with the rearend right now, might as well build it like I'm hoping I'll need and have this portion of the car completed so I don't have to deal with it in the future aside from changing the oil. The fun to most of you guys is the end product...the fun for me is the getting there process.

OH, one last thing...I know I was informed to go with 3.73 gears......I finally decided on the Motive 3.90's. I realize some of you said this gear has some chatter, but I feel it can be reduced/eliminated with the Redline Heavy Shockproof. I just couldn't justify the time/effort/money on 3.73's when I'd only be jumping one gear size. I want the launchability of the 4.10, but keep it under control like the 3.73 would give me. I feel the 3.90 will be the happy medium, for me.

Are any of the above actually required ? At what point are they used, with sticky tires ?
I think badpiggy said he was going to weld the axle tubes. The word is, the entire axle has to be removed from the car, axles removed from each end, LSD removed, and then an alignment rod stuffed through it, then the entire mess is put into a jig. You can't weld em while in place on a lift, or jackstands.

They have to be dead aligned b4 welding..and the 360 deg weld has to be done in one continuous sequence, then you let it cool. The story I'm getting is the cool down sequence is what causes the outer axle tubes to warp/shift..hence the use of the jig, so it doesn't. Here we are talking about welding the axle tubes to the differential.

Another option is the various axle braces sold by CHE+ also UPR etc.

Then you also have the various Aluminum axle girdles...aka differential covers.

I take it that one or more of the above 3 methods could be employed. If you have a watts link, I doubt the axle girdle would fit since the watts link arms might be in the way. The whiteline watts link already comes with a new AL differential cover which might be enough support.

Ok, the above support schemes I think are for folks who drag race..and use sticky tires and drop the clutch at 4-5k rpm. Baffles me why ford didn't just weld the axle tubes to the housing in the 1st place. Some have said that in some cases that is not enough support and that axle braces also have to be used. IE: cracked welds, etc.

What kind of hp are we talking about here to bend the axle tubes outa shape ? Or is this just a pre-heated sticky tire/drag strip scenario ?

I'm thinking in terms of where either the LSD and /or rear gears are replaced, or watts link is installed. IE: while the rear end is all apart anyway, then perhaps do the axle tube welding on the jig/axle tube brace etc....and do it all at once....in the correct sequence.

Jimbo

[Pentalab]

With a stitch weld, the heat has to keep starting..and stopping. Regardless of which method is used, the axle tubes can't be welded, with the car on a lift. Ideally the axle should be removed from the car, placed in the jig, and aligned dead on 1st..b4 any welding starts. Then when it cools, it can't drift out of alignment, since the jig will prevent that from happening. ( the jig captivates the now re- aligned axle). Some folks have welded the axle tubes while on a lift or jack stands, only to find out later that the axle tubes were out of alignment to begin with...and the welding + cool down have made it even worse.

Are sure you want to go with a 3.90 gear ? How much hp are you ultimately talking about, 400-500-600-700 rwhp ? The 2013 GT-500 is 581 rwhp..and it uses a 3.31 rear gear. It will do 60 mph in 1st...and 100 mph in 2nd. It will spin the tires from a 20 mph roll... while in 2nd gear..and spin em all the way up to 80 mph.

I see VMP replaced the oem 3.15 on his wife's 2011 automatic with a 3.55 But that's with 700rwhp. Depending on what the tq curve ultimately looks like, your 3.55 you already have may well be optimum right now. With a roots blower, the tq curve is a mile wide to begin with. Toss in the one piece DS, and it's wider still.

Some folks on the 2010-2012 and 2013 forum have replaced the 3.73 that their roush came with..... with a 3.31 With 500+ rwhp and street tires, and a 3.73 gear, 1st gear is useless, and ditto with 2nd gear.

It depends on the application and end use. Odd trip to the drag strip and mainly a DD.... or a bit of track use as well.
I can see what you are trying to do.... swap the LSD with a tru-trac, change the gear at the same time, + install the watts link.

You will limit your top speed in 4th gear with the 3.90 ( it will limit the speed in every gear). It's still low enough for drag racing so you cross
the line at 130 mph @ 6126 rpm. ( 130 mph@ 6441 rpm with a 4.10 gear) (130 mph @ 5860 rpm with a 3.73 gear)

That's a tough call. I'd be inclined to leave the 3.55 in there. But if you find out it's too high... then you gotta take the watts link all apart to get at the gears, pita. A 3.73 is only 5% more rpm in every gear... so hardly worth the effort. The 3.90 is 9.9% more rpm in every gear....which makes it low enough to represent a worthwhile change.... but not too low that it hampers top speed and fuel mileage.

Jimbo

[AutoXRacer]

As I've asked before, why rebuild or strengthen a 8.8 that may still break when you can upgrade to a bolt-in 9" rear!!???

[DiMora]

As I've asked before, why rebuild or strengthen a 8.8 that may still break when you can upgrade to a bolt-in 9" rear!!???

That is my thought...

...But I also know where BadPiggy is coming from. I have a friend that has a serious shop, so if he can get it (the 8.8) welded correctly for cheap, why not go for it? I used to weld a lot (I have a 220V MIG in my garage as well) and I can tell you that if you weld / cool / weld / cool (stitching, as stated above) you will avoid warping, but as piggy states, a TIG is such a better machine, with precise heat control, and the beads look so sweet.

A continuous 360 would indeed give better penetration, but would definitely warp without a jig.

Which brings us full circle to a Strange 9" being a plug and play (albeit expensive) proposition.

[BadPiggy]

I'm thinking you missed the part of my post when I originally mentioned doing this where I stated that I found a used 8.8 to build. After its completed, I'll do the swap. I wasn't sure how this was done and my friend laughed at me when I mentioned welding my axle still attached to the car.

There's actually more to welding the tubes to the diff than you've mentioned. The pumpkin has to be heated with a rosebud tip. You have to use nickel weld wire/rods. Lay a 1" bead on one side, flip, another 1" bead..do this until completed. Wrap the tube in fiberglass insulation when completed to slow the cooling process. A few more steps that I haven't mentioned. I assure you, I'm not the least bit worried with the outcome when it's finished. My friend knows his stuff.

I would like to pose this question to you regarding running a full 360* bead, all at once. If running a bead this way will prevent warping the best, why are body panels spotted along the way then allowed to cool before tacking again if it's not done to minimize metal swimming?

When a rod shop chops a roof, they don't run one continuos bead. They tack it and keep going back until the entire thing is welded. If you run a full bead, it'll take days to smooth that much warpage back out.

I originally wanted to go with 4.10 gears but Gerald shy'd me away from that with his "1st gear is virtually useless in these cars with a 4.10" speech. I think jumping one size, 3.55 to 3.73 is a waste of time & money, which is why I chose the 3.90.

With a stitch weld, the heat has to keep starting..and stopping. Regardless of which method is used, the axle tubes can't be welded, with the car on a lift. Ideally the axle should be removed from the car, placed in the jig, and aligned dead on 1st..b4 any welding starts. Then when it cools, it can't drift out of alignment, since the jig will prevent that from happening. ( the jig captivates the now re- aligned axle). Some folks have welded the axle tubes while on a lift or jack stands, only to find out later that the axle tubes were out of alignment to begin with...and the welding + cool down have made it even worse.

Are sure you want to go with a 3.90 gear ? How much hp are you ultimately talking about, 400-500-600-700 rwhp ? The 2013 GT-500 is 581 rwhp..and it uses a 3.31 rear gear. It will do 60 mph in 1st...and 100 mph in 2nd. It will spin the tires from a 20 mph roll... while in 2nd gear..and spin em all the way up to 80 mph.

I see VMP replaced the oem 3.15 on his wife's 2011 automatic with a 3.55 But that's with 700rwhp. Depending on what the tq curve ultimately looks like, your 3.55 you already have may well be optimum right now. With a roots blower, the tq curve is a mile wide to begin with. Toss in the one piece DS, and it's wider still.

Some folks on the 2010-2012 and 2013 forum have replaced the 3.73 that their roush came with..... with a 3.31 With 500+ rwhp and street tires, and a 3.73 gear, 1st gear is useless, and ditto with 2nd gear.

It depends on the application and end use. Odd trip to the drag strip and mainly a DD.... or a bit of track use as well.
I can see what you are trying to do.... swap the LSD with a tru-trac, change the gear at the same time, + install the watts link.

You will limit your top speed in 4th gear with the 3.90 ( it will limit the speed in every gear). It's still low enough for drag racing so you cross
the line at 130 mph @ 6126 rpm. ( 130 mph@ 6441 rpm with a 4.10 gear) (130 mph @ 5860 rpm with a 3.73 gear)

That's a tough call. I'd be inclined to leave the 3.55 in there. But if you find out it's too high... then you gotta take the watts link all apart to get at the gears, pita. A 3.73 is only 5% more rpm in every gear... so hardly worth the effort. The 3.90 is 9.9% more rpm in every gear....which makes it low enough to represent a worthwhile change.... but not too low that it hampers top speed and fuel mileage.

Jimbo

[BadPiggy]

Are you claiming that 9" rearends don't break? Just trying to get to the nitty gritty before I invest in this 8.8.

As much as you've done to your car, I'm curious...why haven't you ordered a 9" yet if the 8.8 is so inferior? You've changed everything else, including your trans...which Jim @ JDM states the stock trans is fine with a 700hp car, just change the clutch.

I've not looked at the particulars on the Super Snake, but I'd be curious to know if it's still running the 8.8 or did Shelby upgrade it to a 9"? If the 8.8 is good enough for a 1000hp car, certainly it's good enough for ours.

If I want/need a 9", I certainly have access to them for relatively cheap. There were 3 laying in the floor at my friends shop on Monday when I stopped by.

As I've asked before, why rebuild or strengthen a 8.8 that may still break when you can upgrade to a bolt-in 9" rear!!???

[AutoXRacer]

I will be upgrading to a 9" rear later on... I believe Shelby does not upgrade the rear-ends since the cars are on street tires...spinning tires = no breaking parts... lol
I just looked up the Shelby 1000 and it bring a "Shelby Custom Rear End Conversion" whatever that means... hmm...

And regarding the transmission, yeah, the stock transmission is fine with 700HP...but its crazy/dangerous to drive that gear ratio with those power levels; just my opinion.
Only two reasons I upgraded was because I wanted taller gears to be safe and not worry about spinning out while down shifting at 70 mph and have a usable 1st gear. 2nd reason was that the transmission was already out...so why not...?? LOL